Curse

Esan · Mar 27, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

[I]t does seem to me that developing software that works only with someone else's software requires purchasing a developers' license from the other company.

If that were true, all reverse engineering and interoperability hacks would be illegal, which is obviously not the case. Even the flawed DMCA makes exceptions for reverse engineering and interoperability.

Fried Tech · Mar 27, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

The defendant is making the argument that he never sold a copy of WOW, so he is in the clear. He was only selling software that he created.
Blizzard is saying that since the software copied WoW to a computers RAM, in order to get around anti hacking software, he is in violation of their copyright, as well as the user agreement.

I'm not an attorney so I have no idea how this will work out for him. But I think that is what this boils down to.....?

Fril Estelin · Mar 27, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

But saying that this guy is justified in selling the bots is just unbelievable.

/endrant

It wasn't a rant, for me at least, it was just the natural expression of bewilderment in front of the shift from "what is" to "what I want". People forget realities in the digital world and put forward their expectations, slowly getting into more "the world should revolve around me, my wishes, my free time, my fun factor". To the point where shocking things like RMT, whose real-life equivalent (market parasiting) is banned by law, suddenly become acceptable. As if money could buy you anything, even virtual money. The virtual ME becomes without limit because I can transform CPU time into e-wealth and become the (virtual) persona that represents my ego, and I don't care one inch what you think about it. The shift into the digital age is FAR from finished, as people adapt (very slowly, actually probably at a speed proportional to the amount of money they invest into computers) and re-discover the rules of the real world.

It happened for email spam, which brought phishing. It's happening again for RMT which will bring mass-hacking and fund the illegal markets. If the gold-buyers knew where the RMT money is going, they'd stop on the spot, because they indirectly fund human trafficking, drug commerce and industrial espionage (against their own country). Of course, when the problem is not in front of you in a shape that you can hold between your two hands, it does not count. After all, all I'm typing right now is bits and bytes, you can ignore it as the illusion of the electro-magnetic signal it represents, or listen to it as if someone was telling you the exact same words.

Amy Awien · Mar 27, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

I don't believe in botting and I don't think this Michael guy should have a leg to stand on.

He created a product that people wanted enough to buy it. Seems like sound enterprising to me.

He did nothing illegal either, programmed a computer to do what it is designed to do and what it does best, perform repetitious tasks.

I can't believe that people are trying to stand up for this guy? You don't like to grind? Don't play the game? You want to skip to the "fun" stuff? Well guess what,

Quote:

welcome to the real world, you don't always get what YOU want.

Could as well say that to that game developer. Just because he wrote a program they don't like doesn't mean it should be taken of the market.

Quote:

But saying that this guy is justified in selling the bots is just unbelievable.

Other people have different views on this matter and they are entitled to their views. You might as well get used to other people not agreeing with your point of view. As you said yourself, you don't always get what you want.

Funk ee Monk ee · Mar 27, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

I have a rather hard time seeign the difference between what this guy did and what thousands of consultants do for Microsoft Office everyday across the country. It's like, "I want this software to do this, that, and the other but I lack the skills to make it happen. I will pay someone to set it up for me."

Granted MS Office customization is part of the package, ie that customization functionality is built in. That may be the part that hangs him.

Stockholm · Mar 27, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

OK, I am not a lawyer. But it does seem to me that developing software that works only with someone else's software requires purchasing a developers' license from the other company.

Of course, if the bot will work with any MMO, then it doesn't require such a license. If it ONLY works with WoW, then he will be lucky not to go to jail.

Please correct me if I've misinterpreted the copyright laws as they apply to software.

Do all players here using TEXTMOD have a licens from A-Net? I mean the files published here on Guru only work for GW, and A-Net do not approv of the use of 3rd party programs. Jail time?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10259238
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10205506

That better?

Kumu Honua · Mar 27, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

The part that could REALLY screw him is that he is utilizing "World of Warcraft" in advertising his bot.

He doesn't own "World of Warcraft" licenses, and cannot make money off of another's intellectual property.

Even if this guy wins. He will be sorely disappointed when Blizzard demands royalties.

Another person mentioned Office and such with modifications, and yet another mentions Textmod.

The difference between the office modifications and textmod is that those are given the green light by the owners of the property. This bot creator does not have such, and most likely had instead received a cease and desist.

Pleikki · Mar 27, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

mm Loads of money moving around Wow irl mate of mine Sold his wow account for 5000$

1 up and 2 down · Mar 27, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Do all players here using TEXTMOD have a licens from A-Net? I mean the files published here on Guru only work for GW, and A-Net do not approv of the use of 3rd party programs. Jail time?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...archid=2228181
links to multiple files.

Texmod works with more than just Guild Wars. Plus Anet said they won't take action against you if you use Texmod. And what files are you talking about? Are you talking about Mapping Out? That program doesn't require Guild Wars installed on your computer. So I really am not sure what programs on Guru you are talking about. It would help though if your link worked.

Inde · Mar 27, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

There's currently a pending lawsuit that both sides have filed so clearly they both believe they have a case. Blizzard argues that they are infringing, the bot owner says there's no infringement because the bot program was created and used before Blizzard came out against them. The bot owner also says that any money made is not competing with Blizzard. So.... it's actually a big deal considering that if the court finds in favor of the bot and against Blizzard I doubt any other MMOG company would have anything to stand on in regards to EULA's modified after a popular program is being used or in statements made after a game is released.

All the speculation here... there's no "clear cut winner". This lawsuit will be dragged out for the next 2 years (at least) in court.

http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/03/23...zzard-motions/

enter_the_zone · Mar 27, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckboy

huh? what are u talking about??

if u read the link u'd know he made the money selling his bot to players. Somethin which i think is perfectally illegal since he's making real money from some1 elses (blizzards) software by selling a 3rd party program.

which is exactly why i dont play any other MMORPG, because i believe once u paid for a game its urs t play and u shouldn't have to pay for the rest of ur life to play it.

Bollocks, there are plenty of examples where companies make money selling third party software. Just as a start, any program running on a Microsoft operating system is a third party program. By that logic, Blizzard (and almost every software house in the world) owe Microsoft billions of dollars.

The difference here is, I believe he has modified their client code.
The difference between this and Texmod is that he has sold the product for money.

It's not technically illegal to modify software code, unless it violates the EULA. The terms of the license dictate the use you can make of the software. The maximum penalty for license violation is to render the software unusable (blocked accounts) or require that it be removed. However, it is also illegal to sell those modifications without licensing from the owner. This is where he's likely to hit trouble.

If this was a simple click bot, he wouldn't be in any trouble at all.

FoxBat · Mar 27, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Blizzard is systematically working to outlaw interoperability. This should've been obvious since the BnetD fiasco.

Malice Black · Mar 27, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Good for him!

azzer20 · Mar 27, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melon

cheating? Have you even played WoW? 90% of their game is grinding bullshit that not even whatever no life moron that enjoys grinding enjoy. Blizzards legal department had an argument that botters spend more time in game than anyone else and consuming more resources, wtf does that even mean? consume more resources, like, server bandwith? Give me a break, blizzard can't even keep their f.word servers up properly with causal players playing on it.

No sir, botting is not cheating, Blizzard just say it is because they don't want you to get things too fast because they want more money. Grind=time=money, that's their business formula.

don't cry little boy, there is near almost no grind in WoW anymore, think before posting

Yang Whirlwind · Mar 27, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I just hope that guy looses everything including his hair! Hate cheaters! and the people who make money off cheaters!

Mr. Undisclosed · Mar 28, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by azzer20

don't cry little boy, there is near almost no grind in WoW anymore, think before posting

What! WoW is and always will be known as a huge grind fest.

Anyway I enjoy the grind (I think somethings wrong with me) and wouldn't want a bot to do it for me but gg to that guy. I enjoy my grind without a monthly fee

-Sonata- · Mar 28, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7314353.stm

An interesting read.

I really don't want to make this a sole WoW discussion on the Guild Wars Guru site. Instead, I'm hoping, this can be discussed as it may relate to GW and the upcoming Guild Wars 2.

This is the second time, that I'm aware, that Blizzard has gone after illegal do'ers in its game.

My question is; Are we going to start seeing a precedent where MMO companies will follow in the footsteps and start taking more legal actions against numerous forms of bot creators, gold selling companies, and so forth?

As the MMO market becomes more competitive, as more and more games are being developed, released, or delayed in relation to competition (WAR again has been delayed), there's not much debate that the market is dominating the PC game world. As that market grows, so does the market of "illegal" (using that term in the sense of going against EULA's) actions.

While Blizzard may be the proverbial two-ton gorilla, companies such as NCsoft/Anet, EA, and Sony are no light weights. They have the footprints stamped into the market territory as well. The battle against small-ball botting has always been an issue in any game.

But again, the question asked; Does this setup even more future legal action by game companies, including those involved in Guild Wars, not just Blizzard, against all forms of bots, their makers, and perhaps even gold sellers?

Snow Bunny · Mar 28, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Mr. Donnelly can say whatever the hell he wants, but he'll lose, despite how flimsy the EULA is as a legal contract. Contracts are prime in American law, and thus, by virtue of this, Donnelly loses.

Esan · Mar 28, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Sonata-

My question is; Are we going to start seeing a precedent where MMO companies will follow in the footsteps and start taking more legal actions against numerous forms of bot creators, gold selling companies, and so forth?

Most bot makers and gold sellers aren't foolish enough to leave a calling card. How on earth are you going to sue phantoms? The best you can do is ban the accounts and blacklist any IPs, credit cards etc. used to purchase and operate those accounts.

-Sonata- · Mar 28, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Most bot makers and gold sellers aren't foolish enough to leave a calling card.....

Tell that to Micheal Donnelly and the operators of Peons4hire.
Not everything is a "Phantom".

So my question still remains; With precedents now being set, when years ago the idea of direct legal action was only a floated thought, does it open that door wider for other MMO makers to take similar action against the creators and human operators of the software used and, in perhaps the same boat, the operators of gold selling sites?